"Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

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"Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Adalae » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:45 am

I will be putting almost the whole article so bear with me here.

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Ranchers, hunters in Montana and Idaho plan to fight ruling.

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The gray wolf will be protected again in Montana and Idaho, much to the ire of ranchers and hunters who say the animals kill too much livestock and game.

A federal judge ruled last week to list gray wolves under the Endangered Species Act, saying that the Northern Rockies wolves must all be treated as a single population. In other words, if the animals are considered endangered in one state, they must be listed as endangered throughout the region.

Opponents of the listing are directing their anger at Wyoming. That's because Wyoming law allows the unregulated hunting of wolves throughout most of the state if they are taken off the endangered list. So while the federal government delisted wolves in Montana and Idaho last year after those states agreed to management plans that included controlled wolf hunts, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) kept Wyoming wolves on the endangered list.

"Unfortunately, we're not in a position to reward [Montana and Idaho] for their responsible behavior, because Wyoming is the outlier," said Tom Strickland, assistant interior secretary for fish, wildlife and parks.

Montana and Idaho officials, legislators and ranching groups say they will seek to reverse the ruling by U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy and will pressure Wyoming to change it's policy

...........

But the Wyoming wildlife agency and Gov. Dave Freudenthal say they don't plan to revise the state's wolf policy, which the federal listing overrides. Wyoming Game and Fish department spokesman Eric Keszler says wolves should be considered "predators" that can be shot at will in the nine-tenths of the state that is largely agricultural land. If the wolf is delisted, hunting would be allowed but regulated in the remaining Wyoming land where, Keszler said, the majority of the state's 350 wolves live and should stay.

"They breed pretty prolifically," Keszler said. "When young strike out and find new territory, and get into livestock areas where they have to be removed.

...........

In the early 1900s, wolves were nearly driven to extinction through trapping and hunting. By 1978 they were listed as endangered in the lower 48 states, except for Minnesota, where they were considered "threatened".

............

At least 30 breeding pairs and 300 wolves spread evenly over the states. In 2007, Northern Rockies gray wolves were removed from the endangered species list.

But conservation groups sued over the delisting, and in 2008 Molloy ordered a preliminary injunction restoring protection. By last year, the area's wolf population reached more than 1,500

..........

The number of cattle and sheep killed by wolves increased between 2006 and 2009, according to Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Last year, 97 cattle and 202 sheep were reported killed in Montana; in Idaho the number was 75 cattle and 324 sheep. Wolf supporters said the figures were pale next to the numbers killed by coyotes, weather, and other factors.

Errol Rice, executive vice president of the Montana Stockgrowers Association said the weakening of livestock by the "harassment" of wolves also takes a serious toll, as herds under stress might not reproduce as often, and calves may not gain weight as quickly.

.............

"You have to ask the question, how many is enough?" He said. "There's no danger to the wolf populations - wolves are here to stay. I don't think any amount of hunting in Montana will eliminate them.

Source: The Washington Post

The ................'s meant I skipped some paragraphs.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:53 am

Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Adalae » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:34 am

Blightwolf wrote:Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.
I agree. Them just worrying about it and wanting wolves to be killed doesn't really get them anywhere; they could just build better places for their livestock to stay in safe and sound. Creating a farm and livestock "family" already accepts the conditions that some of them WILL die via wolves, coyotes, etc. and there's really nothing you can do about it. You can worry about it and want to kill the animals, or you can deal with it and adapt.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:21 am

Adalae wrote:
Blightwolf wrote:Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.
I agree. Them just worrying about it and wanting wolves to be killed doesn't really get them anywhere; they could just build better places for their livestock to stay in safe and sound. Creating a farm and livestock "family" already accepts the conditions that some of them WILL die via wolves, coyotes, etc. and there's really nothing you can do about it. You can worry about it and want to kill the animals, or you can deal with it and adapt.
Indeed. Instead of getting upset and angered, farmers should try to experiment non-fatal and humane techniques to deter wolves. Besides, like you stated, if you are a farmer you should consider that it is likely your livestock will get attacked by predatory animals at some point UNLESS you practice predatory animal attack prevention. Most farmers think that the only solution is to kill predatory animals when in reality, killing wolves and other livestock-attacking wildlife such as coyotes, bears and lynxes, is only a temporary measure. Farmers don't even TRY to seek out more ecological and humane ways to deter wolves from attacking. With all this new technology and behavioral discoveries about wolf, it is a real shock that people haven't discovered an effective, non-fatal way to drive off predators. Farmers' favorite statement probably is, "Let me just grab my 12-gauge shotgun and blast that wolf's head off."
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Larkarl » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:33 am

I hate it when people jump right to violence- 'The wolves are eating our livestock; let's kill them'.

I agree with both of you on this issue. We've got all this new technology at our hands and new insight into the lives of wolves. It is inevitable that some livestock will be killed by wolves and other predators; we are not the only predators on the planet. Farmers and environmentalists alike should be working towards new ways to protect livestock from predatory animals. Getting angry over the ruling and wanting to kill the predatory animals like wolves and coyotes will get us nowhere.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:54 am

Couldn't have said it any better mysel, Larkal. Besides, statistically, coyotes attack livestock more often than wolves. But, I guess that it does not matter what type of wildlife attacks livestock, farmers are too thickheaded to think of any other solutions than to instantly kill off animals. Killing wolves and other predators do not make the problems disappear, if anything, it only increases problems.

I say farmers should stop wasting their time protesting against wolf protection and start putting their energy towards thinking about new ways to protect their cattle. I think it would be good for farmers to lay aside their guns for awhile and go out there to build appropriate fences around their livestock. It's not that difficult or expensive to buy formidable material like 9-gauge steel wire, etc, to keep wolves away. Farmers could also set up hot wire or electric fencing. Gunning wolves down is hardly an effective way to stop wolves' predation of livestock.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Asheek » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:18 pm

Blightwolf wrote:Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.

While I agree, you must understand wolf barriers and such cost money, and all that fenceing that would be very expensive. When you have over 1,000 cattle and many more its very hard to get them into safe containment and not many have barns big enough to house all of them. When you add up the costs of feed, machine matinance, taxes, eletric bills, water bills and other costs it's a hefty ammount and some ranchers simply DO NOT have the funds to set up these anti wolf barriers and such and keep them in working order. I grew up on a farm and we always had issues with coyotes and stray dogs. Because we lived in sich a rual wide spred area we couldent call animal control (because when someone did the dogs would dissipear) so the most effective way to get rid of the issue (and cost effective) was to shoot them.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:29 pm

Asheek wrote:
Blightwolf wrote:Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.

While I agree, you must understand wolf barriers and such cost money, and all that fenceing that would be very expensive. When you have over 1,000 cattle and many more its very hard to get them into safe containment and not many have barns big enough to house all of them. When you add up the costs of feed, machine matinance, taxes, eletric bills, water bills and other costs it's a hefty ammount and some ranchers simply DO NOT have the funds to set up these anti wolf barriers and such and keep them in working order. I grew up on a farm and we always had issues with coyotes and stray dogs. Because we lived in sich a rual wide spred area we couldent call animal control (because when someone did the dogs would dissipear) so the most effective way to get rid of the issue (and cost effective) was to shoot them.
Point taken and I agree with you. I do understand that constructing proper wolf barriers and fencing is a costly investment, however, it would be more effective, long-term solution.

I also understand why ranchers fear and hate wolves. Wolves, and other predators, can cause tremendous damage to livestock by injuring them and great financial losses by killing them. I am not trying to downplay the losses of ranchers when wolves and other animals prey upon their cattle. But, in either case, gunning down animals is NOT a good solution to this issue.
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Re: "Much Anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Adalae » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:35 pm

Asheek wrote:
Blightwolf wrote:Geez. I suppose that the stupidity and immatureness of people knows no bounds. I really think that farmers should focus on more important matters than to oppose the protection of an endangered species. Instead, they should build more firmer fencing around their livestock and concentrate in building wolf barriers on their property. Just by getting angered the fact that wolves are protected does NOT protect their livelihood. Yes, wolves can cause financial loss and inflict great damage on livestock, BUT instead of complaining about it, farmers should take measures into their own hands and increase the safety of their livestock by proper fencing and containment materials. Livestock could be spared from wolf attacks if even some minor efforts to provide better fencing and wolf blocks would be executed.

While I agree, you must understand wolf barriers and such cost money, and all that fenceing that would be very expensive. When you have over 1,000 cattle and many more its very hard to get them into safe containment and not many have barns big enough to house all of them. When you add up the costs of feed, machine matinance, taxes, eletric bills, water bills and other costs it's a hefty ammount and some ranchers simply DO NOT have the funds to set up these anti wolf barriers and such and keep them in working order. I grew up on a farm and we always had issues with coyotes and stray dogs. Because we lived in sich a rual wide spred area we couldent call animal control (because when someone did the dogs would dissipear) so the most effective way to get rid of the issue (and cost effective) was to shoot them.
One thing you have to remember about gunning them down is that even though you may, it does NOT push the problem away, rather it could even make it worse.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Asheek » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:41 pm

Yep.
I'm just trying to get in the farmer/ranchers point of view on the issue, since most comments I see (not mainly here, but everywhere) are always betraying them as 'heartless' people when they are desprate to keep their only sourse of income alive.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:52 pm

Asheek wrote:Yep.
I'm just trying to get in the farmer/ranchers point of view on the issue, since most comments I see (not mainly here, but everywhere) are always betraying them as 'heartless' people when they are desprate to keep their only sourse of income alive.
My intention was not to sound biased about wolves or "defend" them if they attack livestock. I do understand that cattle raising is the ranchers' primarily source of income and their livelihood, and that they have invested a lot of money to keep their business flourishing and up and running. But still, gunning predatory animals, like Adalae said, does not push away the problem itself.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Asheek » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:00 pm

Blightwolf wrote:
Asheek wrote:Yep.
I'm just trying to get in the farmer/ranchers point of view on the issue, since most comments I see (not mainly here, but everywhere) are always betraying them as 'heartless' people when they are desprate to keep their only sourse of income alive.
My intention was not to sound biased about wolves or "defend" them if they attack livestock. I do understand that cattle raising is the ranchers' primarily source of income and their livelihood, and that they have invested a lot of money to keep their business flourishing and up and running. But still, gunning predatory animals, like Adalae said, does not push away the problem itself.


Oh, I wasent bashing you or anything, soory if that came across that way.
Yes, hooting them doesnt solve the problem it'sself, but to them, one less wolf is better if they find it going after cattle/sheep/ect.

I'm not sure where but somewhere I herd that some ranchers were given a hefty amount of money for anti wolf (no leathel) things and hardly any of it was spent on the intended perpous.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Koa » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:25 pm

Even though there is a similiar topic located in Wolf Conservation, I will move it there, as this one seems to be a different article and seems to center around the reactions of the people.

-moved to Wolf Conservation-
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by AlbinoWolf6 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:29 am

Sure does bother me when people think the know better than enviromentalists and biologists.
One thing you have to remember about gunning them down is that even though you may, it does NOT push the problem away, rather it could even make it worse.
I agree Adalea! but the farmers are trying to protect their live stock but most of the time wolves do not care about the cattle.
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Re: "Much anger over gray wolf's return to endangered list"

Post by Blightwolf » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:49 pm

Attacks on cattle committed by wolves is very often a part of surplus killing when their natural source of prey is abundant. Studies have shown that wolves prefer their natural wild hoofed animal prey and not domestic ruminants.

Of course, in some countries, wolves live on livestock almost singularly, like in Scandinavia, because wolves' natural prey (deer) is located in different regions where the most vital wolf populations are: Deer is situated in the western and southern parts, where as wolves are situated in northern and eastern parts, where reindeer is being maintained. This causes Scandinavian (Finnish) wolves to continuously attack livestock in order to find available prey.
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