Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post wolf-related questions and we'll try our best to find the answers.

Moderators: Isela, Koa

Post Reply
User avatar
AleuAleta
Newborn Wolf
Newborn Wolf
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:38 pm

Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post by AleuAleta » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:46 pm

Hello! I was wondering if it would be possible for a wolfdog (specifically a high-content wolfdog) to join or start a wolf pack with a full-blooded wolf? As far as I understand it, joining packs is something that only really happens when you have a rare large pack that adopts in unrelated members, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm working on a fantasy novel about wolves, but I want to keep things as realistic as possible. (The 'fantasy' parts should be in the magic, not the social dynamics!)

(also, a quick side note - as much as I love Yellowstone I do plan to set my story in Europe/Europe-equivalent, so any resources on Eurasian Grey Wolves would be greatly appreciated!)

User avatar
DaniBeez
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:15 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post by DaniBeez » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:19 pm

Hey AleuAleta,

I'm going to answer this from a theoretical standpoint and only about modern wolfdogs: as in domestic dogs crossing with modern-day gray wolves, rather than the common ancestor(s) of today's dogs and wolves.

In general, no matter the locale or population/subspecies involved, wolfdogs represent an animal that is neither wild or domesticated. They are a man-made invention, and each individual wolfdog will have behaviours and appearances that vary even within the same litter.

So to answer your question, a canine with traits from both a domestic source and a wild source would probably be rejected by wild wolves with respect to forming packs. In the opposite scenario, some wolfdogs can temporarily coexist with dogs in captivity, but only with constant human supervision to protect the dog; they wouldn't share kennels or runs. Truly case-by-case how interactions would play out. To my knowledge, wolfdogs do not form in the wild, as dogs are perceived as competition and are avoided or killed upon encounters with wolves. Wolfdogs are predominately bred in captive scenarios with human encouragement, and are bred from other wolfdogs.

It is not a coincidence that wolfdogs are a captive animal that are most suitably housed with other wolfdogs or alone. And that captivity is a special enclosure unique to the wolfdog; wolfdogs aren't useful for human work like some dogs are, beyond being educational embassadors for wolf conservation and to promote that wolfdogs are very diffuicult to keep.

With respect to your story, your proposed plotline may unfortunately be unrealistic. However, I think that the existence of the wolfdog can and does offer exciting story opportunities, be they realistic or fantasy in nature!

If you want to read more, the International Wolf Centre has a page about hybrids, although it is North American-focused: https://wolf.org/wolf-info/basic-wolf-i ... g-hybrids/

As well, some food-for-thought: What do wolfdogs want?
Wolfdog philosophy is complicated because wolfdog ontology is complicated: The animals in question are a human creation, bred for human ego and sold for human desire, crosses of creatures adapted for the wild and creatures adapted for cohabitation with humans. They are mercurial. They are unnatural. Nobody could tell me what wolfdogs, in general, want and need, because nobody really knows.
DaniBeez
___Community member since 2010
___Avatar by Sambhur

User avatar
-Wolfdog-
Yearling
Yearling
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:09 pm
Name: Wolf
Gender: Female
Location: Northeast
Contact:

Re: Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post by -Wolfdog- » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:11 pm

Actually, wolfdogs can exist naturally. This is especially seen in Europe (hey, Eurasian?!) and usually only occurs under very specific conditions, hence natural wolfdogs are extremely rare (sources: https://www.thelocal.de/20180620/could- ... se-dangers & https://www.zmescience.com/ecology/anim ... -82462433/
"Despite the evidence of widespread hybridization between Eurasian grey wolves and dogs, the team notes, wolves have remained genetically distinct from dogs. This suggests that cross-breeding with dogs isn’t enough to blend the lines between the two species, provided it occurs at relatively low levels."
(The latter source referencing tours ancient dog DNA)

The most common scenario is when a dispersal wolf encounters a stray dog. Dispersal wolves have left their natal pack to start a family, and if a wolf happens to come across a dog then they will seize that opportunity, as they aren't territorial (because they have no territory) and basically see dogs through "rose-colored glasses" during breeding season. Wolfdogs can definitely 'join' packs, or at least be born into one with recent ancestry. It's not impossible, and it has most likely already occurred in Yellowstone from my very own observation (high content wolfdog). Check out this post :D viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88488
Depending upon the content, a high content wolfdog would likely have success in the wild, as they can be nearly indistinguishable from pure wolves both mentally and physically. Mid to low contents, however, are another story. They would most likely not be able to compete against their larger, purer cousins without sticking to human settlements.

Wolfdogs in the wild can be more dangerous than captive bred ones. With captive breds, they are usually socialized and associate people with something positive (enclosures are also a huge part of it). As we've seen in the past, Wild wolves who become habituated to human presence by themselves are risky (e.g. will kill pets, get close to people, raid trash cans, kill livestock) and will eventually be shot. (Source: https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2 ... uated-wolf). Now imagine a habituated wolf with 3x the prowess. That's a wolfdog.

You're correct about unrelated wolves occasionally joining larger packs. Junction Butte for instance has about 3-4 breeding females and has surpassed or almost surpassed the druids & are about to break the largest wolf pack record. (Source: https://www.yellowstonewolf.org/yellows ... ?pack_id=3). However, it's far more likely for a wolfdog to start a pack with a dispersal wolf instead. Large wolf packs with 30+ individuals are exceptionally rare. Anything beyond 30 something wolves is sort of breaking your realistic social dynamic theme.



TL;DR
To end my rambling, it's not unrealistic, but I would say it's unlikely and it's cool to add flavor to your story. However, if you really want to be as realistic as possible (minus the magic), opt for another wolf instead.
⍋ ⍋
ABNUS LUMI
🐺
🐾

User avatar
DaniBeez
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:15 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post by DaniBeez » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:07 pm

Thanks for the corrections GoldenBeauty, I was not aware of that issue in Germany!

Although I still disagree to an extent about the Yellowstone wolf on the other post (at least until more concrete evidence is presented that it is a product of a recent cross), I appreciate the perspective here in the second link about what is considered a hybrid becoming more nuanced when genetics are considered.
DaniBeez
___Community member since 2010
___Avatar by Sambhur

User avatar
-Wolfdog-
Yearling
Yearling
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:09 pm
Name: Wolf
Gender: Female
Location: Northeast
Contact:

Re: Wolfdogs in Wolf Packs

Post by -Wolfdog- » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 am

DaniBeez wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:07 pm
Thanks for the corrections GoldenBeauty, I was not aware of that issue in Germany!

Although I still disagree to an extent about the Yellowstone wolf on the other post (at least until more concrete evidence is presented that it is a product of a recent cross), I appreciate the perspective here in the second link about what is considered a hybrid becoming more nuanced when genetics are considered.
I agree, the amount of dog characteristics in the photo are almost uncanny, however as far as I'm aware there are no articles or sources discussing it. One thing is for sure though, it definitely had dog DNA in it at some point. How long ago remains a mystery.
⍋ ⍋
ABNUS LUMI
🐺
🐾

Post Reply