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Playing Dead

Find out what we're doing and thinking as we develop WolfQuest 3: Anniversary Edition and the Tower Fall expansion!

Moderators: paperpaws, Koa

What should the penalty be when your wolf dies?

Poll runs till Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:55 am

* Reload from older autosave
21
15%
* Respawn some distance away
58
43%
* Lose XP or similar
47
35%
* No penalty
10
7%
 
Total votes : 136

Re: Playing Dead

Postby Quikke » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:43 am

Why not have a choice? Like for example, say you die... You get 2 options. Spawn closer and loose more experience (25%) or re-spawn at a distance and loose less experience (5%).

I don't like this at all.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread: 25% is a LOT for someone with high XP. Someone with 100,000 XP, and a choice between giving up 25,000 (25%) and 5000 (5%)? There's absolutely no contest, they would always pick the 5%, because picking so saves them 20,000 XP.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Polynesia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 am

Because people keep bringing up the 25% figure... it was just a suggestion. Instead of talking about how much you dislike it (and blowing off the whole idea because of it) it would be better to suggest an alternative you think would be more acceptable. I am gonna lower my original suggestion of 25% to 10%, because a quarter is way too much but 5% is too little in my opinion. After all, how many chances do you wanna give someone? If someone is reckless and dies time and time again, that’s on them. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to punish recklessness, and I don’t think respawning far away does that apart from being annoying and time consuming. It has nothing to do with the gameplay and isn’t really a punishment in some cases. If you are killed by a predator, respawning somewhere else just means you are safe from the predator and with full health again. It’s not a punishment in that sense and has 0 effect on your wolf.

Keeping in mind, that EXP may function differently in WQ3. It’sprobably gonna have more use and so making it a better punishment than teleporting your wolf to god knows where.

Note: for PVP mode, I think you should respawn at the safety of your densite if you are killed by an enemy player (not by prey). To prevent people from being spam killed. This is the only instance where respawning further away makes sense to me. Otherwise, why can’t we keep the current system where you respawn a few meters from where you died? It’s just easier. Again stressing how much time that would save. If I am here to play WQ and progress through the story I would take an option that affects my wolf over one that wastes time any day.

Another disincentive: it would be really cool if, in pack stats, we had a K/D ratio, like in shooter games. Excluding animals that can’t kill your wolf like hares, it would represent the ratio of how many animals your wolf kills for every time your wolf dies. It’s a really good indicator of skill (definitely something to boast in shooter games) and in this case an indicator of how successful your wolf is at being a wolf, so I think having it displayed in pack stats would be a big incentive for people to die less, as well as being super fun and interesting to keep track of for your wolf.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby SnowSprite » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:30 pm

Polynesia wrote:Because people keep bringing up the 25% figure... it was just a suggestion. Instead of talking about how much you dislike it (and blowing off the whole idea because of it) it would be better to suggest an alternative you think would be more acceptable. I am gonna lower my original suggestion of 25% to 10%, because a quarter is way too much but 5% is too little in my opinion. After all, how many chances do you wanna give someone? If someone is reckless and dies time and time again, that’s on them. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to punish recklessness, and I don’t think respawning far away does that apart from being annoying and time consuming. It has nothing to do with the gameplay and isn’t really a punishment in some cases. If you are killed by a predator, respawning somewhere else just means you are safe from the predator and with full health again. It’s not a punishment in that sense and has 0 effect on your wolf.

Keeping in mind, that EXP may function differently in WQ3. It’sprobably gonna have more use and so making it a better punishment than teleporting your wolf to god knows where.


I stand by what I said about losing a set amount of XP instead of a percentage. Though not a fixed set like the current 2.7 multiplayer where you lose 500 each time, but a set amount that keeps increasing each time you die.

I think everyone's talking about the obvious problem that more experienced wolves will suffer more from a percentage decrease which I understand. Even a 1% decrease might still affect very dedicated players who have tons of XP. Having a wolf with 1,000,000 XP and losing 10% of that is a loss of 100,000. Judging by the current game's XP system, that loss would be the equivalent of about a thousand cow elk kills, just from one death.

However, that's not the only reason I don't think it will work. You can't keep dividing something forever because it will never reach zero. You'd have to start going into decimals, and I don't know about you but I've spent enough hours in high school staring at decimals XD

Also, think about it this way: We want to punish recklessness harshly, and honest mistakes less harshly, right? So if a wolf has 100,000 XP and loses 10%, that means you lose 10,000 XP which leaves your wolf at 90,000. 10% of THAT would be 9000 XP. So the amount you lose decreases each time. That means the first couple of deaths, possibly from genuine mistakes, would be punished MORE harshly than dying repeatedly (maybe not in the long term but you get my point).
Unless you're talking about losing a % of the amount you started the game with and not the amount you happen to have at that moment, in which case I still think that's unfair for different reasons.

But I have to say I kinda like the idea of a K/D ratio.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Timber-Wolf-at-Dusk » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:46 pm

loboLoco wrote:
Timber-Wolf-at-Dusk wrote:A lone canine doesn't seem to be strong or experienced enough to take down the same animals as solitary carnivores such as big cats and bears.


Lone wolves rely (same but even more than packs do) on carcasses, juvenile prey, and weak/injured/diseased prey. We're making hunting harder in WQ3 so you'll have to do the same until you get a mate.



That makes sense ^^ Awesome, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Polynesia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:59 pm

SnowSprite wrote:
Polynesia wrote:Because people keep bringing up the 25% figure... it was just a suggestion. Instead of talking about how much you dislike it (and blowing off the whole idea because of it) it would be better to suggest an alternative you think would be more acceptable. I am gonna lower my original suggestion of 25% to 10%, because a quarter is way too much but 5% is too little in my opinion. After all, how many chances do you wanna give someone? If someone is reckless and dies time and time again, that’s on them. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to punish recklessness, and I don’t think respawning far away does that apart from being annoying and time consuming. It has nothing to do with the gameplay and isn’t really a punishment in some cases. If you are killed by a predator, respawning somewhere else just means you are safe from the predator and with full health again. It’s not a punishment in that sense and has 0 effect on your wolf.

Keeping in mind, that EXP may function differently in WQ3. It’sprobably gonna have more use and so making it a better punishment than teleporting your wolf to god knows where.


I stand by what I said about losing a set amount of XP instead of a percentage. Though not a fixed set like the current 2.7 multiplayer where you lose 500 each time, but a set amount that keeps increasing each time you die.

I think everyone's talking about the obvious problem that more experienced wolves will suffer more from a percentage decrease which I understand. Even a 1% decrease might still affect very dedicated players who have tons of XP. Having a wolf with 1,000,000 XP and losing 10% of that is a loss of 100,000. Judging by the current game's XP system, that loss would be the equivalent of about a thousand cow elk kills, just from one death.

However, that's not the only reason I don't think it will work. You can't keep dividing something forever because it will never reach zero. You'd have to start going into decimals, and I don't know about you but I've spent enough hours in high school staring at decimals XD

Also, think about it this way: We want to punish recklessness harshly, and honest mistakes less harshly, right? So if a wolf has 100,000 XP and loses 10%, that means you lose 10,000 XP which leaves your wolf at 90,000. 10% of THAT would be 9000 XP. So the amount you lose decreases each time. That means the first couple of deaths, possibly from genuine mistakes, would be punished MORE harshly than dying repeatedly (maybe not in the long term but you get my point).
Unless you're talking about losing a % of the amount you started the game with and not the amount you happen to have at that moment, in which case I still think that's unfair for different reasons.

But I have to say I kinda like the idea of a K/D ratio.


I do like this idea, but my point still stands about the difference in EXP across players. A base value loss of 500 means absolutely nothing to an experienced wolf, and even if it increases, by how much? 100 EXP each death? That will still mean nothing to a wolf with loads of experience until they’ve died very many times, but very harmful to a wolf with low experience after they’ve only died a few times. I think there is too much of a difference in EXP distribution (I know players with over a million experience) for base values to work.

In terms of reflecting realism: experienced wolves are generally better at being wolves, right? They’re less likely to make mistakes and die. So if you lose a % of your total EXP when you die, and you still manage to have really high EXP, it goes to show that your wolf is very good at being a wolf and doesn’t die often. In other words, you deserve the EXP you have, (you took the time to practice hunting technique and improve your skills) and didn’t just get it through grinding. Whereas, if EXP loss is a fixed value for all, EXP is less valuable and having lots of it doesn’t say as much. It would not be a big accomplishment.

You should consider, that wolf deaths will probably be much less common in WQ3. Loboloco says in his post that our wolves will be harder to kill, and the new hunting system theoretically allows you to avoid taking damage at all, which is why I don’t think the percentage thing will be as harmful to super-experienced wolves as people seem to think. (And also renders the increased penalty less effective.) I think we can expect a learning curve in the beginning as we learn how to hunt, but then much much less deaths overall. After all, the main cause of wolf deaths is not prey but fights with other wolves, but that’s why PvP mode will probably be treated differently when it’s released..

Also, your point about the penalty getting smaller each time... that’s only true with back to back deaths (caused by the same animal on the same hunt) which I think there may be less of, due to the new system mentioned above and the learning curve. I think in WQ3 deaths are likely to be fewer but also more spread out between themselves. (I’m guessing here, it’s hard to tell without testing.) The penalty is based on the amount of EXP you have at the time of death so it’s not necessarily getting smaller. You could have more EXP than the last time you died, and therefore a higher penalty. (And about the decimals and infinitely dividing numbers.. maybe there could be a point, like when you have less than 10 EXP, where the game just drops you to 0 the next time you die. Idk lol.)

It’s kind of hard to come up with a solution that works until it’s tested and we have more “death statistics.” I think the dev team will tune this anyway during beta when they have more info on how our wolves will kick the bucket. :P
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby SnowSprite » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:29 pm

Polynesia wrote:
SnowSprite wrote:
Polynesia wrote:Because people keep bringing up the 25% figure... it was just a suggestion. Instead of talking about how much you dislike it (and blowing off the whole idea because of it) it would be better to suggest an alternative you think would be more acceptable. I am gonna lower my original suggestion of 25% to 10%, because a quarter is way too much but 5% is too little in my opinion. After all, how many chances do you wanna give someone? If someone is reckless and dies time and time again, that’s on them. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to punish recklessness, and I don’t think respawning far away does that apart from being annoying and time consuming. It has nothing to do with the gameplay and isn’t really a punishment in some cases. If you are killed by a predator, respawning somewhere else just means you are safe from the predator and with full health again. It’s not a punishment in that sense and has 0 effect on your wolf.

Keeping in mind, that EXP may function differently in WQ3. It’sprobably gonna have more use and so making it a better punishment than teleporting your wolf to god knows where.


I stand by what I said about losing a set amount of XP instead of a percentage. Though not a fixed set like the current 2.7 multiplayer where you lose 500 each time, but a set amount that keeps increasing each time you die.

I think everyone's talking about the obvious problem that more experienced wolves will suffer more from a percentage decrease which I understand. Even a 1% decrease might still affect very dedicated players who have tons of XP. Having a wolf with 1,000,000 XP and losing 10% of that is a loss of 100,000. Judging by the current game's XP system, that loss would be the equivalent of about a thousand cow elk kills, just from one death.

However, that's not the only reason I don't think it will work. You can't keep dividing something forever because it will never reach zero. You'd have to start going into decimals, and I don't know about you but I've spent enough hours in high school staring at decimals XD

Also, think about it this way: We want to punish recklessness harshly, and honest mistakes less harshly, right? So if a wolf has 100,000 XP and loses 10%, that means you lose 10,000 XP which leaves your wolf at 90,000. 10% of THAT would be 9000 XP. So the amount you lose decreases each time. That means the first couple of deaths, possibly from genuine mistakes, would be punished MORE harshly than dying repeatedly (maybe not in the long term but you get my point).
Unless you're talking about losing a % of the amount you started the game with and not the amount you happen to have at that moment, in which case I still think that's unfair for different reasons.

But I have to say I kinda like the idea of a K/D ratio.


I do like this idea, but my point still stands about the difference in EXP across players. A base value loss of 500 means absolutely nothing to an experienced wolf, and even if it increases, by how much? 100 EXP each death? That will still mean nothing to a wolf with loads of experience until they’ve died very many times, but very harmful to a wolf with low experience after they’ve only died a few times. I think there is too much of a difference in EXP distribution (I know players with over a million experience) for base values to work.

In terms of reflecting realism: experienced wolves are generally better at being wolves, right? They’re less likely to make mistakes and die. So if you lose a % of your total EXP when you die, and you still manage to have really high EXP, it goes to show that your wolf is very good at being a wolf and doesn’t die often. In other words, you deserve the EXP you have, (you took the time to practice hunting technique and improve your skills) and didn’t just get it through grinding. Whereas, if EXP loss is a fixed value for all, EXP is less valuable and having lots of it doesn’t say as much. It would not be a big accomplishment.

You should consider, that wolf deaths will probably be much less common in WQ3. Loboloco says in his post that our wolves will be harder to kill, and the new hunting system theoretically allows you to avoid taking damage at all, which is why I don’t think the percentage thing will be as harmful to super-experienced wolves as people seem to think. (And also renders the increased penalty less effective.) I think we can expect a learning curve in the beginning as we learn how to hunt, but then much much less deaths overall. After all, the main cause of wolf deaths is not prey but fights with other wolves, but that’s why PvP mode will probably be treated differently when it’s released..

Also, your point about the penalty getting smaller each time... that’s only true with back to back deaths (caused by the same animal on the same hunt) which I think there may be less of, due to the new system mentioned above and the learning curve. I think in WQ3 deaths are likely to be fewer but also more spread out between themselves. (I’m guessing here, it’s hard to tell without testing.) The penalty is based on the amount of EXP you have at the time of death so it’s not necessarily getting smaller. You could have more EXP than the last time you died, and therefore a higher penalty. (And about the decimals and infinitely dividing numbers.. maybe there could be a point, like when you have less than 10 EXP, where the game just drops you to 0 the next time you die. Idk lol.)

It’s kind of hard to come up with a solution that works until it’s tested and we have more “death statistics.” I think the dev team will tune this anyway during beta when they have more info on how our wolves will kick the bucket. :P


It doesn't necessarily have to be an increase by 100 but that was an example. And I just assumed the base value of 500 because that's how much you lose for dying in 2.7 multiplayer. But yeah you're right, newer wolves would suffer more. If it were to go with the "base value" idea, maybe it could be affected by ranks? The higher your rank, the more you lose, or something similar to that. So a wolf with 2000 XP doesn't lose as much as a wolf with 40,000 XP.

I like your point about realism and I agree. I know I'd be motivated to learn the skills and techniques to avoid a giant penalty, as I'm sure a real wolf would do the same to avoid injury or dying. I guess I'm just worried about possible bugs/glitches that might cause your wolf to die and lose a huge fraction of XP for no reason (but that shouldn't happen and I'm hoping it won't XD).

Maybe the penalty could depend on how your wolf dies (starvation, wolf fights, different types of prey/predators etc.)? Idk, I'm just throwing ideas around at this point. I'm sure the devs will figure it out. I think we're losing on the poll anyway, haha.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Quikke » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:19 pm

SnowSprite's idea is probably the best solution for XP docking. It's treating your Death count as a multiplier. 1 death you lose 500XP, 2 deaths you lose 1000XP, 10 deaths you lose 5000XP. The more you die the more you have to lose.

You can expand on this principle and make it so that there's a hidden death counter for the ways a wolf in WQ can die. That way, deaths out of your control are not as harsh, but if you try to cheese something - like a moose hunt - you're setting yourself up for steep consequences down the line, and no one will be at fault but yourself.

ie. By going with 500 deducted XP as in 2.7, dying 8 times trying to cheese a bull moose loses you 4000 XP, but if you then went and got killed by a bear and it's your 1st time, you only lose 500 XP.

I'd say you could make the bite sting less for players with less XP by having it be based on XP you would gain if you lived, like 1/2 or 1/3 or something, then multiplied by the # of times you were killed by that thing. That way the first few deaths are fairer since it can take players a bit to notice the amount of points they lose gets larger for the individual offenses.

Give a free pass for the death required achievements, though. Maybe. Since you kind of HAVE to let yourself get killed to get them and getting penalized for something like that doesn't feel completely fair.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Phasoli » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:58 pm

Polynesia wrote:In terms of reflecting realism: experienced wolves are generally better at being wolves, right? They’re less likely to make mistakes and die. So if you lose a % of your total EXP when you die, and you still manage to have really high EXP, it goes to show that your wolf is very good at being a wolf and doesn’t die often. In other words, you deserve the EXP you have, (you took the time to practice hunting technique and improve your skills) and didn’t just get it through grinding. Whereas, if EXP loss is a fixed value for all, EXP is less valuable and having lots of it doesn’t say as much. It would not be a big accomplishment.


I agree with this all the way. EXP should really reflect your skills as a player, and not just the rank that your wolf carries, which is why I am not completely opposed to the percentage idea. If anything, it does what it should do: make players more careful and conscious of their mistakes. After all, wolves are very careful in the real world. In a game that inspires players to think and behave as wolves, this would be the perfect way to influence that sort of mindset.

In 2.7, our wolves do tend to die accidentally, but with Dave's suggestion that wolf-deaths altogether will be more difficult in the new game, deducting EXP will be the perfect penalty for punishing mistakes, since honest accidents will be harder to come by.

A few comments have mentioned to add a physical injury or impairment as a penalty as well, and I wouldn't be opposed to that if the budget permits. An entire injury system wouldn't be necessary (although widely desired) either. A simple limp animation, coupled by lowered stats (say, stamina, for example) would do the trick. These health effects could eventually wear off with time, and just as effectively discourage the player from making the same mistake twice. In turn, this could provide the foundation for a more sophisticated injury system in the future.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby dym » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:21 pm

I believe the inclusion of injury as a penalty would be really cool and immersive. Instead of being teleported away or losing hard earned exp, you become weaker and slower for some time. Would be a great addition to a realistic sim.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Frodo1 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:12 pm

I have to say, I do like the idea of an injury system. That's actually a lot like what the old game WOLF used (though you could also permanently die), and it was very effective. While injured, players couldn't run, making it nigh on impossible to catch prey. However, they could still move about, scavenge, and escape threats (if they were careful). The primary difficulty with this system was that it made it difficult to escape the (rather overpowered) hunters, but since WolfQuest doesn't include hunters or any predator that actively targets wolves (beyond competing with them), an injury system could work quite well. It wouldn't have to last for long (5-10 minutes at tops imo), but it would also discourage players from being reckless repeatedly.
A health/hunger penalty could also be good, especially in combination with an injury system. It could also easily be tuned so players wouldn't starve while injured, but so that they'd have to go find food again soon after.
As many others have pointed out, an exp penalty could easily become difficult to regulate. It's a good option if a suitable system is found, but to find a good system would be difficult, at least with the way exp currently works.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Noctis_ » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:26 pm

I'm definitely going to have Ironwolf and one-life mate turned on at all times.
I know I'm probably alone (or very rare) in this, but personally I'd prefer the highest and most realistic punishment possible for death, which is of course no second chances. Real wolves don't get them, so I don't want them. I want to be forced to act as a real wild animal would, constantly vigilant and carefully weighing risk against reward in every scenario. That sense of risk, and the knowledge that a poorly thought-through move could mean the end of my life, is what the game's excitement and stimulation would come from. But that's just my personal preference; call me an adrenaline junkie.

An injury system sounds like a fantastic idea to me. It's an appropriate and realistic way to punish more minor mistakes, and actually adds extra stimulation because players would then have to try and figure out how best to work with their injury. It would certainly slow down reckless and impatient players in a way that's physically impossible to ignore (in contrast with XP deduction or respawns).
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby x1103 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:07 pm

Definitely the respawn or similiar. XP penalty just seems so... harsh. Also if the game difficulty can be adjusted, it doesn't seem fair that those playing with low difficulty settings are likelier to have more XP than those on "Bring it on". Shouldn't it be vice versa?

The injury system would be very cool. Wonder how that would affect the health bar? And what about other animals... Should they become bolder/less scared of an injured wolf? At least the player might be less eager to compete even with coyotes when the wolf has low health as they might do a little more damage. Maybe the tables would turn and the wolf would have to sneak a bite of a carcass to run (limp) off with?
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Polynesia » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:27 pm

I like the injury system but I don’t think it really fits as a penalty for death? I mean, your wolf wasn’t injured. Your wolf died. Why would you start again but with an injury? I think an injury system, if one is added in the future, would be better used realistically, when your wolf is injured in the game. (Although I’m kinda skeptical. Depends how the dev team handles it but it seems like something that would easily have a realism-enjoyability conflict. Nobody really wants to be slow and impaired even for a few minutes. I would rather pay for my mistakes quickly and get on with the game.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Phasoli » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:05 pm

Polynesia wrote:I like the injury system but I don’t think it really fits as a penalty for death? I mean, your wolf wasn’t injured. Your wolf died. Why would you start again but with an injury? I think an injury system, if one is added in the future, would be better used realistically, when your wolf is injured in the game. (Although I’m kinda skeptical. Depends how the dev team handles it but it seems like something that would easily have a realism-enjoyability conflict. Nobody really wants to be slow and impaired even for a few minutes. I would rather pay for my mistakes quickly and get on with the game.


I definitely see what you mean, there. Here's how I see it. Since the player is given a second chance at life, the game can safely claim that the injury penalty is a result of your wolf experiencing a near-death experience. Think about it. Players have multiple lives--multiple chances. Perhaps these chances should be treated as such: chances. So an injury penalty may make it seem as though the player is given a second (or third) chance at life within realistic premises. That's how I see it, anyway. It would be a cool penalty to implement in my opinion, but I do see the potential flaws with it, like players attempting to kill themselves for the sake of enacting injury in roleplay. That's why it shouldn't be a standalone penalty if it is ever considered. There's my two cents!
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby foxtrotmoon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:47 am

Hey, guys! I think if we spawn a distance away, there should be some way to protect your pups until you get back. You know, so they don't die? Can the single player's mate protect them somehow? Sorry, I was just curious. But I must say that I am excited to see what the new game turns out to be! I thought the 2.0 wolfquest was realistic, but the new one is looking even more so! Thank you for making this game amazing :D
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