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Playing Dead

Find out what we're doing and thinking as we develop WolfQuest 3: Anniversary Edition and the Tower Fall expansion!

Moderators: paperpaws, Koa

What should the penalty be when your wolf dies?

Poll runs till Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:55 am

* Reload from older autosave
21
15%
* Respawn some distance away
58
43%
* Lose XP or similar
47
35%
* No penalty
10
7%
 
Total votes : 136

Re: Playing Dead

Postby SnowSprite » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:29 pm

Bushmeat wrote:If it isn't totally unfeasible, what if there was an increasing scale of penalties depending on how many times your wolf has died that playthrough?


I was thinking of something like that too, for the XP option. It takes long enough as it is to get at least 200,000 XP to unlock the "pack elder" rank. Imagine losing 25% of that all at once which is... I think 50,000 XP? That would be rough. I think it would be more interesting if every time your wolf dies, the amount you lose increases by some number, like 1st time you die you lose 500, 2nd time you lose 600, 10th time you lose 2000, or something like that. So if you died a couple of times you could get your XP back (with some effort), but if you're reckless and die too many times, it starts to show.

I think the spawn option and autosave option would make the game itself seem frustrating, when you only want the player to be frustrated with their own skills and decisions. :P
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Arcturus221B » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:23 am

Personally, I don't like the percentage idea at all. It's fine for people that have no exp or very little to begin with (which means new wolves don't have any sort of penalty and you don't have to fear death with a brand new wolf), but for people like me, who have gathered an insane amount of exp, 20-25% would be way too harsh a penalty, especially considering the fact you can die due to some random glitch you have no control over. Imagine losing 20% of 1 million exp due to a glitch, and some people have three times that amount. New wolves could pretty much be as reckless as they wish while older wolves with lots of work put into them are terrified of death because it means losing so, so much. I like SnowSprite's idea of losing a set amount of exp per every death more, but not by much. Thinking forward to PvP where dying will probably be a lot more common, this penalty would be even worse and give trolls the oppertunity to come in with a brand new wolf and attempt to kill an experienced one with very little holding them back. Death has no effect on them anyway.

So out of all the options, I prefer spawning some distance away the most. It's the same for everybody and since it's annoying it sould be detrimental enough to make players more careful, but it doesn't punish the player too harshly or some more than others. As long as we don't have to run the entire width of the current map just to get back to where we died it's fine. I do hope the timer will be removed. Running all the way back should be enough of a timer :')

EDIT: I was thinking... Currently when you die, you respawn a little ways away from the spot you died (a few metres). Is it possible to keep this in WQ3 but (going with the distance penalty) you increase the distance you respawn at? That way, you're not reliant on spawn points to respawn and, depending on how many spawn points the new maps have, you can make the penalty a little less extreme. I hope you know what I mean here haha. The only issue I can find with this is spawning in some odd places, but that's possible with the current system as well.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Starbender2000 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:04 am

This is awesome! I feel that it is already very hard to attack and kill elk simply because of the health continuously decreasing, and the need to eat every-time just to finish the hunt. But because of the resting to restore health this should equal it back out! Also I think the penalty of death should remain the decrease in xp, though this lowers your rank it does seem proper! Thank you! XD

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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Gillato » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:11 am

I disagree with poly, i really like the respon a fair distance one' it's fair and you wouldent have to really go that far to return to the place you were at.

so thats my opinion on this subject, :pawprint:
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Timber-Wolf-at-Dusk » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:05 pm

I like all of these ideas, when playing animal simulators I always look for realism first and think when you die as your character then punishment is nessary. In real life when a wolf is killed it’s all over, no respawns or second chances. But I do understand if the game had “iron wolf” as it’s default people might have a tendency to disengage. Perhaps a mix of these ideas would be a good idea. I think it might be intresting to mingle these into the game difficulties. The more challenging the greater the risk, like it you die on bring it on you would loose more xp, reload further away, etc. And less if your on pretty easy. I love the percentages that others have come up with and think this would force players to learn to rely on skillful tactics rather than overly agressive and reckless hunting behaviors. I know this along with other changes will help to cut down on surplus killings making carcasses even more valuable and harder to hang onto . In all honesty being a hunter is hard work, and avoid being killed in the process when big animals are involved is even harder, I like how WQ will reflect this harsh reality. I think it will help us learn empathy for these pack animals and understanding that killing is a must but isn’t taken lightly. Wolves test many animals but attack few, they are cautious and have evolved extrodenary skills to pick out that one weakness which could result in a meal. Growing up I had always assumed if a carnivore was hungry, it went out and ate, simple as that but they have the hardest roles in the world. The wolf is racing after a meal, the elk is racing to preserve its life. :wolf:
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Windstrider » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:51 pm

I think the respawn point and the xp loss seem like the best options. They're still definitely a penalty, but not one that's extremely irritating and makes you lose progress. You can eventually make up the xp, and you can go from the respawn point. So it's a penalty, but it's more of a learn-from-your-mistakes penalty than an overkill (pardon the pun) omg-this-is-seriously-frustrating penalty, yet it's also not a small enough penalty to allow players to just go around doing reckless things with no consequences - it'd balance realism and gameplay well, imo. And of course for the players who want more realism and/or difficulty, there's the Ironwolf mode. And having Ironwolf not be the default is good because it makes the game more playable to new or casual players (without having to go changing settings), but if someone wants the challenge, they can choose to turn the Ironwolf mode on.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby SamueWolfSword » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:54 pm

I might make edits or changes to this sometime.


Thanks for making this and giving the players the option to help determine the outcome of the game.
I dun want a penalty, though...

Highlights:
Different penalties for different deaths. Death from PVP teleporting you away sounds good ta me. For losing XP in relation to how many times ya die, perhaps if you live for quite a while it could lessen the penalty.

This is a long post so I put the rest in a spoiler.
Spoiler: show
Some things that can kill you WolfQuest:
Starvation
Killed by an NPC (wolves, elk, moose, bears, cougars)
Killed by a player

Notes: You could have different penalties for different deaths, such as death from PVP teleports you while death from defending your pups reloads your save or pauses the game and takes away your XP.

"Reload from older autosave"
This has problems if the player can`t manually save. Like Sunset-Light said, what if the game autosaves right before a pup dies? Then that would defeat the purpose because the player might try to die.
I like having to reload a save (not an autosave), though, because it gives me control and makes the game less stressful.

"Respawn some distance away"
*spawns in a rock* 'I am no longer a wolf.'
Very useful for PVP! ...and maybe hunting (without pups), however kind of bad when you do have pups.
Possible deaths with pups:
1) You die while trying to hunt an elk and are teleported far away and end up not having enough time to kill an elk and feed your pups so your pups starve. This would probably promote players leaving carcasses around the den.
2) A predator tries attacking the pups and kills you, thus teleporting you somewhere far away. Either the predator will kill your pups or something will happen and the predator will not kill them (perhaps you`d be too far away for the predator to load), but then your pups would die of starvation because you didn`t get there in time and hadn`t fed them all before getting killed. The second outcome might promote players to either leave carcasses near the den or to feed their pups before paying attention to any predators.

"Lose XP or similar"
This probably only affects players that care about XP (like me..). The rewards for getting XP in WolfQuest so far are ranks, the East Creek den, and the white pup.
Losing percentages of your XP: Please no. Imagine trying to get 10,000 XP after you lost it to something that only gives you 200 XP, like bears, for example.

"No penalty"
I like this one! Pick me..!
Wolves don`t really get punished when they die other than making life harder for their pups. Sometimes players might want to be able to die without punishment, as well. Perhaps this could be an option (like how Ironwolf is optional), however if you choose it you don`t receive experience points when in this mode.

End Notes: Please make death fair between older wolves and newer wolves (<-- refers to Arcturus`s post, however disagrees with the losing exp per death `cuz that can still be more harmful towards older wolves and better for newer wolves. Although, maybe if you die a lot but then have a streak of not dying for a while the penalty could lessen. (I`m not talking about PVP, btw)).
Last edited by SamueWolfSword on Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Lebron BMT » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:40 am

Just saw this. Dave, please consider making the player wolf deal with reduced healthy (or 'injury)' after death for a certain amount of time as a penalty for death. Consequences for your actions and consequences for death is something severely lacking in most video games. With Wolfquest, you have the option to make it a realistic consequence (sort of), which is reduced health as a consequence of dying.

Perhaps in the 'Ironwolf' mode the reductions to health are permanent? Or another mode? Just some suggestions.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Quikke » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:15 am


I personally prefer distance spawn, and do not want my XP count to be touched at all (I play very carefully and put lots of time into it :C) but if you wanna go with a fair XP deduction punishment, I highly recommend autosaves.

Dying and having to go back to an autosave in other games basically makes it so anything, ANYTHING you did between that last save and your death never happened. Hunts, successful kills, distance traveled, XP gained from those things. Everything. Probably would make players save more often than they need to, but lapses in judgement after a while will BITE and be totally on the player. Plus, it won't dig into the XP a player's already built up.

Really! Autosaves are brutal. I have dozens of horror stories of lost progress in Zelda: Breath of the Wild cuz I tried to bulldoze my way through something and lost massive amounts of weapons/loot/korok seeds. Especially on Master Mode. If you want the player to feel guilty for being reckless/arrogant enough to think they wouldn't die, AutoSave all the way. I have never played a game so strategically as I did BOTW cuz I just did NOT want to face the consequences if I died. The sting of lost progress is more than enough to make even harmless death absolutely painful.

---
Edit1: Format of some words
Edit2: Text color change
Edit3: Rewrote post
Last edited by Quikke on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Arcturus221B » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:23 am

SamueWolfSound wrote:"Respawn some distance away"
Very useful for PVP! ...and maybe hunting (without pups), however kind of bad when you do have pups.
Possible deaths with pups:
1) You die while trying to hunt an elk and are teleported far away and end up not having enough time to kill an elk and feed your pups so your pups starve. This would probably promote players leaving carcasses around the den.
2) A predator tries attacking the pups and kills you, thus teleporting you somewhere far away. Either the predator will kill your pups or something will happen and the predator will not kill them (perhaps you`d be too far away for the predator to load), but then your pups would die of starvation because you didn`t get there in time and hadn`t fed them all before getting killed. The second outcome might promote players to either leave carcasses near the den or to feed their pups before paying attention to any predators.


If you don't mind me replying Cx
Assuming pups don't starve nearly as fast in WQ3 as they do in 2.7 (even on Bring it On) I don't think this is that big of an issue, otherwise it could always be adjusted by making pups starve less quickly. They shouldn't be able to starve to death during the time it takes to get back to the den after you died there or when you're killed while hunting, unless, I suppose, if they were already close to starving. Then the pups dying is kinda on you and pretty much boils down to "don't die". Reload from a save and try better next time, I would say.
Predators killing pups after your death is already in the game (they only kill one pup though) and if they would be able to kill your pups while you're respawning somewhere else.. that would be bad game design in my opinion. In the current game, predators can't kill your pups while you're away and that should still be the case in WQ3.

Leaving carcasses near the den is a thing I doubt players will ever stop doing because a lot of us like to make things easier for ourselves :') The only way I can see this not happening is if elk (and other prey animals) can't be herded. Though with the new mechanic in which you can carry pieces of meat players could end up running back and forth to dump a pile of meat next to the den. Slap a short timer on the pieces of meat after they're dropped to make them dissappear and that would be the end of that :')
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Timber-Wolf-at-Dusk » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:08 am

I actually have an idea for this, I know WQ said it will be much harder to kill animals and to be killed ourselves. How about to reflect this we could become injured, such an a broken leg or bleeding. Similar to the Isle we need to break off the attack and rest so we don't die from blood loss. Or rest to help heal our bones. Similar to what others have talked about. The injuries could linger for a while and force us to be more cautious. This would also push us to find and mate or work with a pack since making a solo living would be much harder.

I have a question, something that has kind of been bothering me for a while now, I'm not sure if I'm misinformed or just not understanding correctly. I know wolves are pack hunters and have become so successful through their social nature. They are born into a thriving groups which works together to bring down elk, deer, ect. But when these pups are old enough and disperse what would they eat then? A lone canine doesn't seem to be strong or experienced enough to take down the same animals as solitary carnivores such as big cats and bears. Im aware there have been exceptions such as Yellowstone's she wolf. The alpha female of the Larmar Canyon pack who learned to kill elk solo, but she was so famous because this was so unusual. Our wolves in the game being perfectly able to kill elk has not set well with me. Im curious am I mistaken and this is common among real wolves? If not will wolf quest 3 reflect this, forcing us as loners to hunt smaller game such as nice and other rodents and scavenge , possibly from existing packs? This would also be a cool way to find a mate, tagging along a family group and looking for opportunities, Please let me know your thoughts im genuinely curious. Thank you.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby loboLoco » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Timber-Wolf-at-Dusk wrote:A lone canine doesn't seem to be strong or experienced enough to take down the same animals as solitary carnivores such as big cats and bears.


Lone wolves rely (same but even more than packs do) on carcasses, juvenile prey, and weak/injured/diseased prey. We're making hunting harder in WQ3 so you'll have to do the same until you get a mate.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby poncho0287 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:11 pm

Gillato wrote:I disagree with poly, i really like the respon a fair distance one' it's fair and you wouldent have to really go that far to return to the place you were at.

so thats my opinion on this subject, :pawprint:

I agree with this one.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Riverfrost_ » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:16 pm

SolitaryHowl wrote:I love the inclusion of ironwolf (also the name, hah)

I agree with Poly, XP penalty will be the best way to go. But not a set amount, make it a % of your current experience so it is more of a punishment. Like 20% or 25%

This is super late but I kinda disagree with this. If we follow that rule, it would take around 5-6 deaths to lose ALL of your hard-earned XP, collected over possible years.
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Re: Playing Dead

Postby Hash_Myth » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:27 am

I have a idea that many may like.

Why not have a choice? Like for example, say you die... You get 2 options. Spawn closer and loose more experience (25%) or re-spawn at a distance and loose less experience (5%).

Also I'd love to see a system setup that would have perks for your wolf. Like say you can gain points from doing things and loose points for death. Kinda like a skill tree.
The perks wouldn't be something that would make your wolf have special powers or something but more of a edge. The longer you live and contribute to your pack or your level, the more powerful you become... But die... And you loose your powers/points and have to collect them back up again.

Maybe like a stronger mate bond, critical chances for attacks, faster speed in attacks, burst of speed or stamina, ect... Just some things that could give you a edge, but not so much that it makes it totally unbalanced.

It would be better to have skills that you can gain and loose as many times as you live or die vs just leveling up and having a level next to your name and title of said level.
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