Playing Dead

Find out what we're doing and thinking as we develop WolfQuest 3: Anniversary Edition and the Tower Fall expansion!

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What should the penalty be when your wolf dies?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:55 am

* Reload from older autosave
21
15%
* Respawn some distance away
58
43%
* Lose XP or similar
47
35%
* No penalty
10
7%
 
Total votes: 136

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loboLoco
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Playing Dead

Post by loboLoco » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 am


https://youtu.be/yI5uJNSXkvA

Death has always been cheap in WolfQuest — it’s pretty easy to kill most animals, and easy to be killed. We’re changing that in WolfQuest 3: Anniversary Edition to make the game more realistic — but of course we still want it to be an enjoyable game, so we need to find the right balance.

What we’re changing:
* Your wolf will be tougher and harder to kill. It’ll take a lot of damage to push the Health meter down to zero. (And instead of eating to restore health, you can simply rest and sleep as it recharges automatically.)
* Other animals will be tougher and harder to kill. You won’t be able to kill a coyote with just a few bites anymore, and big prey like elk will take a more prolonged and concerted effort to kill — but we think the improved gameplay will hold your interest. (Hares are the exception, still easy — if you can catch one!)

But the wilderness is a dangerous place and it’ll certainly still be possible to get yourself killed. So we’re thinking about how to handle respawns. First, we will have a Ironwolf option for the player-wolf. In Ironwolf mode, auto-saves and manual saves are disabled, so dying ends the game for you (but doesn’t delete your wolf, so you can start over with that wolf if you like.) We are very excited about how this will change the entire game, making every encounter more dangerous. (We will also have a permadeath option for your mate; if they die, you’ll have to go it alone or find another mate.)

But we know that many players don’t want that kind of stress, so Ironwolf will be disabled by default. You’ll be able to enable it in Game Settings, alongside the usual difficulty levels.

Without Ironwolf enabled, death won’t be the end of things for you. But because it will usually require fairly reckless or careless behavior to die, we are thinking about imposing a penalty for dying. What kind of penalty? Some possibilities:

* Respawn at a spawn point. We’ll have multiple spawn points due to the much larger maps, so we can respawn you at the nearest one, but it’ll usually be a fair distance from wherever you happen to die.
* Reload the autosave — but autosave less frequently, so you lose more progress when you respawn.
* Lose some XP or similar.

We’d like to know what you think, so please vote for your preferences and add any additional comments or suggestions below. Thanks!
Dave/loboLoco
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Polynesia
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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Polynesia » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:19 pm

I wouldn’t make auto save less frequent because that could have unintended consequences (if someone’s game crashes and they can’t reload to a recent point, for example).

IMO, an XP penalty may be the best disincentive. It’s like a currency in the game and the only thing that shows for your experience.

However, losing 500 XP won’t hardly mean anything to a player with 10,000. Maybe the XP loss could be a percentage of the player’s total XP. Like, 25%?

Distant spawning points sounds frustrating to me. It would do the job but make the gameplay less enjoyable, so I might steer clear of that.

Q: will Ironwolf, difficulty setting, and mate permadeath all be exclusive settings from one another (I think would be great in my opinion, lets you customise your game) and if your mate dies, will you be able to find a new one even after you have had pups?

I can’t wait to play. :)

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by MysteryFoxSpirt » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:04 pm

Just got the notification from YouTube in my last school class!

I've never been reckless in Wolf Quest, unless it's a moose and I'm hunting in multiplayer, and because of that, I won't have any problem with death!

Stronger wolf means less death, and that's a good thing. In order to die now, I just need to be an absolute idiot! XD not me, because I'm not an idiot and won't go chasing a moose alone XD.I

And I may do iron wolf as a challenge. Iron wolf makes it more realistic. Wolves don't respawn in real life, so they?

But yeah. Can't wait! :wolf:

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by SolitaryHowl » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:28 pm

I love the inclusion of ironwolf (also the name, hah)

I agree with Poly, XP penalty will be the best way to go. But not a set amount, make it a % of your current experience so it is more of a punishment. Like 20% or 25%

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Sableback » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:34 pm

SolitaryHowl wrote:I agree with Poly, XP penalty will be the best way to go. But not a set amount, make it a % of your current experience so it is more of a punishment. Like 20% or 25%
I second that. Or.. third? that?

Anyway, definitely trying the ironwolf challenge out. Never tried to play all in one go, so this'll be fun. :D

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Phasoli » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:36 pm

I love the idea of the Ironwolf setting! I can't wait to try it out when the game comes out. For more casual gameplay, however, I don't think that the penalty should be too severe. Losing a little EXP or experiencing a small distance displacement might be enough of a penalty for the player to learn from their mistakes. I love how this is coming alone.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by DispersedHowl100 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:09 pm

I was just thinking about this! A penalty for getting killed (If u have pups) could be your pups drop there health/hunger down 50 percent. I dont know, perhaps somthing like this can be based on difficulty or u can toggle it. This could somthing that could help first time players instead of getting killed, their pups could be effected or one of them could be effected. Also, can there be an option on multiplayer to kinda have an iron wolf? But once a player dies they get kicked from the game and cant come back? If i had that i had that option it would be fun to make a Survival of the Fittest server! Oh and please make strength effect health, i saw a youtuber talk about how strength doesnt really effect much. Having a speedy wolf with ok stamina is better then having a strength oriented wolf.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Bushmeat » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:18 pm

Reloading from an older autosave seems like it could be circumvented by manually saving before trying something stupid?

I like the respawn distance concept. I know respawning some ways away might be frustrating, but maybe it should be- dying should be more of a big deal in the new game, like you said in the video.
XP penalty is a good deterrent for the people who care about XP, but I feel like there really should be more direct in-game consequences to getting killed, as opposed to the sort of first-layer of abstraction that experience points are. Distance is a nice thing that makes dying have an immediate, at least slightly annoying effect- hopefully without doing a lot of damage to people who don't want to play the harder ironwolf mode.

A solid percentage of XP points being taken away would definitely make dying a big deal, but depending on how high the scores get and how hard it is to get them in the new game, it might also really tick off people who work for hours to get a high score and then lose, say, 1/4th of it to dying once, possibly their first time.

If it isn't totally unfeasible, what if there was an increasing scale of penalties depending on how many times your wolf has died that playthrough? (IDK, maybe total per wolf if there's a max/cap number?? otherwise you'll be getting wolves with ridiculous penalties upon death cuz they've died 100 times)

Cuz like, one time? Okay, you've tested your limits, you went too far. Be more careful next time.
Two times? Maybe you got caught by surprise, maybe you're being foolish.
Three times? You're probably dying avoidable deaths.

Regardless, I look forward to trying out dying (lol?) in the new game!

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Whirl-Oakpaw » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:34 pm

I think that respawning a little ways away, but not *too* far, and losing some XP, would be a good penalty for dying. I think you should be able to run back to the spot where you died within 15-30 seconds or so. I also like DispersedHowl100's idea of dropping your pup's health down to 50% whenever you die.

Ironwolf setting sounds like fun! I'm glad that it's a toggle-able option though, along with mate perma-death.

Really looking forward to trying out the new game as soon as there's a stable enough build to try, even if it's not fully finished! Thanks for all the hard work on the new game!

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Polynesia » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:44 pm

Bushmeat wrote:I like the respawn distance concept. I know respawning some ways away might be frustrating, but maybe it should be- dying should be more of a big deal in the new game, like you said in the video.
XP penalty is a good deterrent for the people who care about XP, but I feel like there really should be more direct in-game consequences to getting killed, as opposed to the sort of first-layer of abstraction that experience points are. Distance is a nice thing that makes dying have an immediate, at least slightly annoying effect- hopefully without doing a lot of damage to people who don't want to play the harder ironwolf mode.
I disagree. The game should not have to make itself annoying as a punishment, especially because this is more a technical annoyance and not a “naturalistic” one that directly effects your wolf. What I mean is, losing XP might be a more in-game form of penalty than respawn (the opposite of what you’re thinking) if the new XP system in WQ3 will affect your wolf in terms of ability, which has been hinted. It means losing XP will have a real effect on your wolf. I think your second point (about penalties piling up) could be something to think about, if a loss rate of 25% XP is too much for a first timer. :)

Since the respawn thing is gaining traction in the poll, a few thoughts...

Distant respawns would be so annoying in pack hunts in multiplayer and I really don’t think it would work without ruffling a lot of feathers. It already takes ages to run across 1/3 of the current map, so it would help to know what Dave means by a “fair distance” from where you died.

The other thing is puppies... if you die defending them, and respawn somewhere decently far away. That makes no sense and is really unfair, your puppies could be on the brink of starvation and suddenly you have to run all the way back?

Anyway, I feel like I’m missing something, because I don’t think it’s a good idea. I don’t know...
Last edited by Polynesia on Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Sunset-Light » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:46 pm

I feel like an EXP penalty would make the player be careful not to die, especially if the penalty was a large amount. Spawning a far distance away would be more annoying than anything. To me, it seems more like a "two minutes in the time-out corner" thing than an actual punishment. Reloading an autosave is a decent option. But, hypothetically, what if a player's pup dies right after the game autosaves, and that person likes to be realistic and lets their pups stay dead? If that player died, they would have to reload the autosave that saved before the pup died if the autosave didn't do its thing within that time limit. I can imagine that being a bit frustrating.

So, I agree with Whirl that spawning not too far away and losing some EXP would be a good penalty.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by SolitaryHowl » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Polynesia wrote:
Bushmeat wrote:I like the respawn distance concept. I know respawning some ways away might be frustrating, but maybe it should be- dying should be more of a big deal in the new game, like you said in the video.
XP penalty is a good deterrent for the people who care about XP, but I feel like there really should be more direct in-game consequences to getting killed, as opposed to the sort of first-layer of abstraction that experience points are. Distance is a nice thing that makes dying have an immediate, at least slightly annoying effect- hopefully without doing a lot of damage to people who don't want to play the harder ironwolf mode.
I disagree. The game should not have to make itself annoying as a punishment, especially because this is more a technical annoyance and not a “naturalistic” one that directly effects your wolf. What I mean is, losing XP might be a more in-game form of penalty than respawn (the opposite of what you’re thinking) if the new XP system in WQ3 will affect your wolf in terms of ability, which has been hinted. It means losing XP will have a real effect on your wolf. I think your second point (about penalties piling up) could be something to think about, if a loss rate of 25% XP is too much for a first timer. :)

Since the respawn thing is gaining traction in the poll, a few thoughts...

Distant respawns would be so annoying in pack hunts in multiplayer and I really don’t think it would work without ruffling a lot of feathers. It already takes ages to run across 1/3 of the current map, so it would help to know what Dave means by a “fair distance” from where you died.

The other thing is puppies... if you die defending them, and respawn somewhere decently far away. That makes no sense and is really unfair, your puppies could be on the brink of starvation and suddenly you have to run all the way back?

Anyway, I feel like I’m missing something, because I don’t think it’s a good idea. I don’t know...
Once again, I'm going to agree with you. I don't like it when games force me to backtrack/respawn me at a distant save point when I die (looking at YOU Metroid Prime series...), it is a waste of my time and it makes me want to put the game down.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by loboLoco » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:58 pm

Thanks for all the discussion! Haven't had a chance to read it closely yet, but I will.

And one note: I think that dying/respawning in multiplayer will probably be at least somewhat different than in singleplayer. In 2.7, we deduct XP because the reloading a save-game isn't feasible technically. A lot of other games use the respawn-point. But we're open to suggestions on how to handle MP differently than SP.
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Re: Playing Dead

Post by LamarWolf » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:40 pm

I think you should respawn at a certain at a distance so you end up dying and you can't immediately go after what you were going for if what damage you did to that animal remains at all. The thing with xp is losing 20% of it when your at 100,000xp you lose a bunch which would personally be annoying to me because I want to do risky thing with my wolf and if I survive then I get more xp but if I don't survive then I lose a bunch of xp which is frustrating.

One question if there is an xp loss would you lose xp in pvp.

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Re: Playing Dead

Post by Polynesia » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:11 pm

LamarWolf wrote:The thing with xp is losing 20% of it when your at 100,000xp you lose a bunch which would personally be annoying to me because I want to do risky thing with my wolf and if I survive then I get more xp but if I don't survive then I lose a bunch of xp which is frustrating.
That’s true, but isn’t that kinda what Dave is trying to emulate?
If you’re a wolf, hunting a big animal means risking everything. You either win and get a reward, or lose with serious consequences. (Wolves usually die when they are badly injured.) The point is that because of this, wolves are very careful hunters in real life, and I think that is what the developers are trying to incentivise for WQ players, to reflect realism. (This fits the new hunting system, where you can avoid taking damage if you are careful enough.)

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