Community and Competition

Find out what we're doing and thinking as we develop WolfQuest 3: Anniversary Edition and the Tower Fall expansion!

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Lebron BMT
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Lebron BMT » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:52 pm

@Phasoli

My concern as just a player is the single-player experience. As far as I can tell a lot of resources are being put into multiplayer (both funding & moderation efforts). It's pretty obvious that bringing something like pack vs pack competition with real players rather than AI in multiplayer is going bring in a ton of new problems for the mods. Multiplayer as it is now already demands so much of them. As a result of multiplayer problems, we can probably expect the single-player experience to suffer. For instance, the violence and ferocity of pack competition will probably be seriously toned down because of dev/mod fears that things may get out of hand in multiplayer if, say, the new moves the new pack vs. pack competition allows for are too violent or have the potential for abuse or intimidation against other real life players.

Of course, none of these problems are present in single-player games and the level of animosity and competition players have against AI opponents will be never be as intense as it is for real life opponents in multiplayer. The latter case is bound to result in a ton of problems and gameplay restrictions meant to stop those problems. This will in turn affect what they decide is acceptable for single-player pack competitions. I do fear WolfQuest is going down the path of other mainstream games wherein the problems and concerns of multiplayer becomes the chief priority in game development and as a result limits to the single-player experience are imposed because of multiplayer problems.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Phasoli » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:06 pm

Lebron BMT wrote:For instance, the violence and ferocity of pack competition will probably be seriously toned down because of dev/mod fears that things may get out of hand in multiplayer if, say, the new moves the new pack vs. pack competition allows for are too violent or have the potential for abuse or intimidation against other real life players.
I see your point here, and I would agree that the violence may inspire negativity amongst players. I trust that the team will develop ways to cope with this possible issues without completely toning down the violence (which I already suspect will retain a sort of PG rating) that will be expressed in Single-Player. When there is a will, there's a way!
Lebron BMT wrote:I do fear WolfQuest is going down the path of other mainstream games wherein the problems and concerns of multiplayer becomes the chief priority in game development and as a result limits to the single-player experience are imposed because of multiplayer problems.
I have to disagree with you here, however. The team seems to be striving to greatly improve and enhance the Single-Player experience as much as they are expanding Multiplayer. The new updates every week are proof of that, haha. Now they may not always be Single-Player exclusive, I'd say that they add flavour to both Single and Multiplayer aspects of the game.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Lebron BMT » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:42 pm

Hopefully that's the case. But that's very difficult to do and very resource intensive. With other mainstream games, the best single-player games and the best multiplayer games are very different and have very clear priorities that focus on one more than the other (for instance, the Uncharted Series vs Call of Duty).
Phasoli wrote:
The team seems to be striving to greatly improve and enhance the Single-Player experience as much as they are expanding Multiplayer. The new updates every week are proof of that, haha.
The last two updates were designed with multiplayer in mind (pack vs pack stuff and now the new hunting moves that allow for multiple wolves biting at once). Anyways, my concern is more about these features being limited because of potential multiplayer issues. It would be great if the team could develop WolfQuest into an amazing single-player and multiplayer wolf game, but I know this is very unlikely and simply wishful thinking. Even mainstream games are unable to manage this despite having a lot more funding and manpower. WolfQuest has recently gone mainstream since it hit Steam, so it's only a matter of time before the demands for bigger and better multiplayer overwhelm the devs. It appears that this is already happening. My concern is that the single-player experience of simulating a wolf's life as much as possible will suffer in the long-run as a result since the devs only have so much time and funds, and multiplayer demands a lot of it in addition to causing development limits with things like violence.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by SolitaryHowl » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Dave himself has said that pack vs pack will be in single player as well, so I don't see why the new hunting moves/latching points wouldn't be available in single player once your pups are old enough to hunt with you?

As for violence...the game can't get too violent as there are children who play this game. So I think the team is trying to find a balance with their younger and older playerbase.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Lebron BMT » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:27 pm

@SolitaryHowl You're missing my point, which is simply that the devs are being forced to split their precious efforts between multiplayer and single-player. It's gotten to the point where they have to develop separate mechanics for each--it's not how it used to be. Given that WolfQuest is obviously a much smaller game than most with less funding and fewer developers working on it, my concern is simply that one or the other--multiplayer or single-player--will suffer as a result of the other, and that this will be more pronounced in-game given the smaller nature of the game in regards to funding and manpower.

It's more of a long-term concern that I have now given the current direction of WolfQuest that I hope the devs are conscious of.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by SolitaryHowl » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:11 pm

AFAIK there is nothing that is restricted to single-player only and multiplayer only?

But yes, I think its a valid concern. I hope Dave sees this discussion.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Quikke » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:58 am

I can't really see how multi-player seems to be getting more attention than single player. All of the features being brought up - for the most part - are also being put into single-player. What I have noticed is that - unlike over the years - multi-player seems to be getting the attention it actually needs. It's exciting, but also somewhat baffling since it's coming all at once, compared to the early years where most of the focus had been on say, Slough Creek, bug fixes, and security measures regarding the legacy lexicon system back then.

It is an important concern, though. I'm not the biggest MP-goer, since I prefer to play with friends and don't really have any that play the game. Hopefully the team will try to stay balanced so that multi-player doesn't totally overweigh single-player like other games tend to.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Lebron BMT » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:32 am

Quikke wrote: I can't really see how multi-player seems to be getting more attention than single player.
Again, it's a concern for the future given the current trend in WolfQuest more than anything. The two game modes of singleplayer and multiplayer divide dev time since they have to work on both, and design gameplay that is appropriate for both. That is inevitable. Multiplayer already demands so much of the devs/mods. Just the chat system alone haunted WolfQuest admins for years as they were always scrambling with it and tweaking it and fixing it and disabling it and enabling it. My concern now is simply based on these observations: 1) most games heavily prioritize one over the (single-player or multiplayer). Even major companies making triple A games can't do both well; and 2) WolfQuest has very limited resources in comparison to most game developers, so every bit of it is precious.
Quikke wrote: All of the features being brought up - for the most part are also being put into single-player
The problems the devs anticipate with multiplayer with something like pack vs. pack competition is bound to affect single-player gameplay too. The admins had to deal with excess abuse of something as simple as the bow emotes, so you can imagine the limitations they are building in to the pack vs. pack mechanics to prevent abuse of fighting emotes or whatever the mechanics they decide on--which again, will probably be restricted in it's integral design because of potential multiplayer issues. Designing a gameplay mechanic with multiplayer problems in mind will obviously affect single-player mechanics as well because again, WolfQuest's resources are limited in the first place.
Quikke wrote: Hopefully the team will try to stay balanced so that multi-player doesn't totally overweigh single-player like other games tend to.
Yeah. The devs probably do their best but at some point they'll probably be forced to pick a priority as it happens with most games.
Last edited by Lebron BMT on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Phasoli » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:27 am

I can't really say that I feel as though the team would prioritize one game-mode over the other. Yes, I understand that the previous updates have been designed for the enrichment of multiplayer, but the new hunting mechanism can apply to Single-Player mode as well (wherein the wolves, and NPC wolves are able to pile on to a target).

I understand your concern--I really do. I just feel like we should trust the devs a little more. Maybe Wolfquest isn't like "most games". :)
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by loboLoco » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:46 am

Don't have much time to write today, so briefly:

1) I originally imagined WolfQuest as a multiplayer game.
2) We faced plenty of challenges during initial development and had to prioritize the singleplayer game.
3) With 2.7, we began working towards parity between singleplayer and multiplayer modes.
4) Most of the development effort applies to both modes anyways.

So again, in short, We just want to make WolfQuest the best version of itself that we possibly can, and that includes both single and multiplayer. We don't see any problems with that plan.

I don't think there's much to gain by further discussion on this tangent to the main topic.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Kelvin » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:20 pm

Just want to say, I've had mixed experiences with PvP in other games. On the one hand there are games where PvP is everything, and leads to fierce competition and looking down on newer players; on the other, there's my favorite online game, "Star Pirates". It has a wonderful community, partly, I believe, because it's browser-based and there are no graphic animations of player "death". When you're raided by another pirate, often they'll send you some Duct Tape to get out of the shipyard faster.

I hope PvP in WolfQuest leans in the direction of "Star Pirates": nice and friendly.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Polynesia » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:42 pm

Kelvin wrote:Just want to say, I've had mixed experiences with PvP in other games. On the one hand there are games where PvP is everything, and leads to fierce competition and looking down on newer players; on the other, there's my favorite online game, "Star Pirates". It has a wonderful community, partly, I believe, because it's browser-based and there are no graphic animations of player "death". When you're raided by another pirate, often they'll send you some Duct Tape to get out of the shipyard faster.

I hope PvP in WolfQuest leans in the direction of "Star Pirates": nice and friendly.
I agree! :) PvP could be a big aspect of this game (it normally is in most multiplayer games) and I really want it to effect your affinity with your pack, like protecting your team mates, etc, instead of just being all about killing your enemies. Which is why I think play-fighting will be an underrated feature because it lets you bond with your friends, practice your actual fighting, and prevents you from actually harming your pack mates.

I also have a question about the Tower Fall PvP mode. You said that two packs would occupy the northern and southern halves of the map. Will there be a hard border through the middle of the map set throughout the game, or will the borders be fluid, meaning you can scent mark on the other pack's land and occupy it if they fail to defend the area? It sounds really fun and I would love to know about it when you have the system designed! (Maybe in a future blog post :))
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by DragonSoul720 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:11 am

I am so excited about this release. And now you guys are thinking about introducing what is basically pvp. Which is amazing, so excited.
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Starbender2000 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:07 pm

Question: will this also be available in single player, the competition between pack? Just AI instead of people? :D

-StarBender2000 :wolf:
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Re: Community and Competition

Post by Polynesia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:44 pm

Starbender2000 wrote:Question: will this also be available in single player, the competition between pack? Just AI instead of people? :D

-StarBender2000 :wolf:
Yeah, singleplayer will be you with your mate versus AI packs. :) :wolf:
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